First, I haven't figured out how to get t-bird to quote, or even to reply to a list posting, so this is all by had, I can't even get copy/paste to work. Dr Klepp asked which system: This is the same old asus box, in the house that ran wheezy for years, but now has an uptodate stretch amd64 install.� At least I think its uptodate, they've made it almost impossible to run synaptic now, I ran, late yesterday about 3 full cycles of memtest, no errors. The main problems withkmail seem to be related to index files getting out of whack and I have restored it by stopping kmail, deleting the index files for the folder thats crashing, and restarting kmail --sync. Leave it alone for an hour or so and it will rebuild the index files again.� But its in trouble again if I delete or move a file to the spam folder. And running it from a shell, to get that debugging output, when did kmail become dependent on N-M, as pasted from tht shell: ene@coyote:~$ kmail --sync [TDE NM Backend ERROR] [/build/buildd/tdelibs-trinity-14.0.6/tdecore/tdehw/networkbackends/network-manager/network-manager.cpp:1165] org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManager was not provided by any .service files [TDE NM Backend ERROR] [/build/buildd/tdelibs-trinity-14.0.6/tdecore/tdehw/networkbackends/network-manager/network-manager.cpp:1165] org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManager was not provided by any .service files [TDE NM Backend ERROR] [/build/buildd/tdelibs-trinity-14.0.6/tdecore/tdehw/networkbackends/network-manager/network-manager.cpp:1687] org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManager was not provided by any .service files kmail: WARNING: readFolderIds(): Found serial number zero at index 38 in folder /home/gene/Mail/.briarpatch.index.ids ASSERT: "msn != 0" in /build/buildd/tdepim-trinity-14.0.6/kmail/kmmsgdict.cpp (468) kmail: WARNING: writeFolderIds(): Serial number of message at index 0 is zero in folder coco kmail: WARNING: writeFolderIds(): Serial number of message at index 0 is zero in folder coco gene@coyote:~$ WeaverThreadLogger: thread (ID: 1) suspended. WeaverThreadLogger: thread (ID: 2) suspended. WeaverThreadLogger: thread (ID: 3) suspended. WeaverThreadLogger: thread (ID: 4) suspended. kmail: WARNING: Attempt to reference invalid serial number 15648 kmail: kmail: WARNING: Attempt to reference invalid serial number 15649 kmail: *** KMail got signal 11 (Crashing) [kcrash] TDECrash: Application 'kmail' crashing... Thats one session of kmail, lasted maybe 10 seconds before I clicked on something and crashed it again. As you can see, its fussing about the coco list folder, which is the parent of around 17 subfolders named ack the year of each ones messages. Starting year is 2002, goes on to 2018 with the parent folder now containing the 2019 messages.� If kmail survives the year, those will get moved to a 2019 folder.� If it survives, its being a pita and I am just now learning how to use both t-bird and imap. Do you have any ideas?� I'm all ears.� Thanks Nik.