Hi Guys,

On Saturday 25 April 2020 13:35:59 William Morder via trinity-users 
wrote:
> On Saturday 25 April 2020 04:04:09 deloptes wrote:
> > Sl�vek Banko wrote:
> > > Hi Nik, all,
> > >
> > > I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
> > >
> > > Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand
> > > over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no
> > > registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder.
> > > Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only
> > > Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary
> > > natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I
> > > don't find a reason to call it a fork.
> > >
> > > Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept
> > > donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts
> > > donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not
> > > an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project
> > > for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for
> > > its continuation.
> > >
> > > I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept
> > > donations and manage funds is to create our own organization.
> > > Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
> > >
> > > 1. Create our own organization and take responsibility for all
> > > legal matters relating to the status of the organization.
> > >
> > > 2. Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is
> > > the same principle as projects associated with organizations
> > > such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache
> > > Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
> > >
> > > As I see in the comments from others involved in the
> > > discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some
> > > claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many
> > > problem points - the choice of continent, country, state,
> > > legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to
> > > deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with
> > > the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in
> > > the legislation of a selected country so that the organization
> > > does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want
> > > to do that?
> > >
> > > Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to
> > > deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option
> > > with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more
> > > advantageous.
> >
> > Hi Slavek,
> > I understand the people here are discussing just in theory what
> > could be doable, where, how and when. It looks like many people
> > care about TDE and it might be the concern they have about the
> > future of TDE.
> >
> > I let you explain if you wish how the future looks like, but may
> > be (I have not looked at the TDE page) there are all the details
> > explained (if not it is worth putting it down). I tend to
> > remember that replacement of Tim was publicly announced.
> >
> > On the other hand I was looking with some friends into the
> > regulations regarding NGOs in Austria fiew years ago, and they
> > are really appealing. It is almost no cost and offers benefits if
> > you want to get funds, do charity or support an idea.
> >
> > Originally the thread was about T-shirts and pollos and they
> > started looking into how such things (for example your favorite
> > coffee mug) can be sold and support TDE. This is not a bad idea
> > at all, if someone wants to do the administrative part.
> >
> > For example it can be that Nic takes the responsibility to do the
> > paper work in Austria and someone else (Thiery) organizes the
> > shirts and whatever.
> >
> > I think it should be clear, that nither you nor whoever from the
> > developers and the people working on the project can and want to
> > spend time on such activities.
> >
> > In any case it is interesting to read.
>
> Ideally, out of respect to those readers who want to be about ONLY
> TDE-Trinity technical matters (and NOTHING MORE): We really ought
> to have something like a forum, where such matters can be given
> free rein, without annoying them who don't want to read our
> dreaming and scheming. Readers can just skim over the threads, and
> choose what to read, or not. When it's like this, where everything
> gets sent out to the mailing list, and annoys some of the
> subscribers, well that's just not good for anybody concerned. But
> so this is where we are, and we can try to deal with it. Apologies
> to all who take offense; what follows is both verbose and prolix,
> and moreover, uses too many words.
>
> Myself, I would agree that less involvement with the business side
> of matters is definitely preferable. Who, after all, wants to keep
> the accounts, pay for servers, hosting, etc.? However, somebody
> does something now, or we wouldn't be here; so it seems to me that
> it is rather a question of how to bring it all out into the open,
> allowing members to get involved, if they have something to
> contribute in the way of resource, skills, background, knowledge,
> or useful business/legal connections. I do not want to see TDE
> taken over by a gang of Suits, who only see it from the point of
> view of business; I believe any business or legal arrangements
> ought to serve the collective interests of furthering development
> of the Trinity desktop, rather than TDE serving business or similar
> interests in profit or whatever.
>
> However, to take only the matter of branding: If TDE is to be
> circulated and promoted along side other desktops, gets included in
> the mainstream repositories such as Debian, Ubuntu, etc., then we
> will eventually be forced to establish copyright over logos, and
> any other unique details of design, and so on. This means that we
> will need at least some involvement in the dirty world of business.
> Otherwise, we create polo shirts and coffee mugs and mouse mats:
> but for what purpose, except to raise a little money, to keep
> development going forward, to ensure that TDE will still be
> available in the future, so that we all don't end up being forced
> to use ... ? some other desktop?
>
> If I recall, Mozilla (for example) is, or used to be, a non-profit
> organization. Just because a business is set up as a non-profit
> doesn't mean that they cannot make money; it just means that the
> nature of their business aims primarily at a public good, or a
> service to community. Some non-profit businesses in the US can make
> BILLIONS of dollars (e.g., hospitals and such); so much so, that
> the notion of "non-profit" seems rather like a word-game, that it
> is really just a trick to avoid taxes, and meanwhile the smaller
> non-profit businesses are sometimes overburdened with paperwork.
>
> In any case, there is no point in creating T-shirts, or any other
> items with TDE logo, name, catch-phrases, etc., if we do not
> consider these matters of branding and copyright. We might recall
> that Mozilla got all upset not so much that other people forked
> their project to create Seamonkey, Iceweasel, Icecat, etc.; but
> rather that they wanted changes in both name and logos. It was a
> conflict over branding and who owns the logos and names. And to
> take care of those matters, we will need some sort of legal
> framework and business structure; as well as a name, a place, and
> local address to call home, where mail gets sent, and so on. That
> can be a post office box, and whoever collects the mail can also
> keep the books, so long as there are some guidelines.
>
> And I agree with Nik that it seems best to avoid US jurisdictions,
> if possible. (I hear, through the grapevine, that Delaware is a
> good state to incorporate for businesses; I don't know if it is
> preferable for non-profits, but the information can be found.) In
> any case, we might think hard before establishing business in the
> US. Wait until the dust settles from all the weirdness going on
> here in the States ... say, another 20 or 30 years? ... before
> putting down roots here in the US, and our states might not be
> called "united" by that time. Moreover, legislators have very
> little understanding of their computers and smartphones actually
> work: witness the controversies over encryption and such.
>
> But then, so we decide (for example) to keep it as simple as
> possible, to use a fiscal host (as Slavek recommends). Now let's
> say that somebody in Germany has set up an operation to manufacture
> and sell T-shirts and polo shirts; another person, in France, is
> creating coffee mugs, some others in Russia have made TDE mouse
> mats; and meanwhile we have people in the US who want to buy these
> items, or otherwise contribute some money to the cause. How do we
> establish our name, slogans or catch-phrases, any kind of design
> copyright, unless we have some kind of legal framework, business
> structure, and a local address in some nation or other? Moreover,
> when these cottage industries manufacture TDE swag, how do we
> funnel the extra funds (above basic expenses) into an account where
> it may be used to further the development of TDE? Or shall we
> expect that these various operations will just hand it over out of
> the goodness of their hearts? What if they decide unilaterally to
> change something in design of TDE logo, name, slogans, etc.? for
> example, to promote a private agenda (political, religious, etc.),
> or if their products are just plain crap, and an embarrassment to
> the rest of us?
>
> All of these issues imply the need of some kind of legal framework
> and business structure. And I, out of everybody here, avoid that
> stuff like the plague. Nothing kills creativity so fast as when,
> for example, a group of Suits walk into a recording session; and I
> don't imagine that the Suits are much different in any other kind
> of creative work. But there it is. We need to have some kind of
> place, a locale in the real world, and this means getting entangled
> with local laws and government and business practices.
>
> As for *where* might be most suitable for our needs? I don't know,
> Switzerland? Belize? Grenada? the Bahamas? I hear that there are
> some abandoned or unclaimed rigs off the coast of the UK and
> Europe, and there is some spot of land that is not claimed by any
> nation, somewhere in Eastern Europe, if I recall. We could wait and
> hope that somebody discovers the mythical kingdom of Shambala ...
> that's always a possibility.
>
> Apologies for the length, but that's my rant.
>
> Bill

Having run businesses for nearly 50 years, I understand where Bill is 
coming from.  With all the added legislation and rules, running any 
kind of business is full of traps for the unwary.  I would think long 
and hard if that was something I wanted to do.

Whilst I am very willing to support TDE by buying goods or donating 
money, but as soon as it becomes a commercial enterprise someone has 
to be the legal entity.



-- 
Best Regards:
            Baron