Hi folks Firstly I'd like to thank everyone who replied to my email. I've decided to document my experience with trinity in case developers are saying to themselves - we've created the best DE ever and few are useing it - don't they know how good it is? Hopefully this reply will help improve the interaction between the developers and the end users because without some improvement this fork will go the same way as most of the others - into a back water. Just to explain where I am coming from, I am no expert, the first interaction with computers was in the mid 80s when I was writing machine code, by hand - literally, on a home computer - requiring the tv as vdu. Unfortunately I didn't continue down that road, so I'm no geek. Discovered linux 2008 and was immediately hooked. Discovered kde3.5 and found my nirvana. Have used kubuntu 8.04 since. LOVE the console and always look forward to writing scripts when necessary, sometimes even when not! (you know what I mean). But I have never compiled or applied a patch - in my defence I am tired, old and have other more pressing matters to attend to. If you want to see how I use my computer have a look here: http://www.lougogan.com/computer/linux/screen-01.php (this was when I was changing my web site from html to php - it wasn't contrived) So, in short I am not a newbie and not a geek - just somehwere in-between. Is that the description of a no-hoper? ;-) I DO understand that the work done by the developers is volunatary work etc.so please take this as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I, for one, want to see trinity work and be successful for the LONGTERM - for purely selfish reasons! ;-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Julius > There is a live cd with Trinity that works well. > You can upgrade Trinity to 3.5.13 and it should stay stable. The mention of the live CD got my attention immediately. Initially I had downloaded ubuntu 10.10 solely to have an up-to-date buntu version before downloading trinity - what a waste of a cd, what can I say about Unity - ugly CHOAS! I went back and checked out the official installation page and saw the link to the live CDs. I had seen the link before but the way it was worded it looked as if it was a link to buy a CD with trinity installed. I have downloaded it and plan to check it out within the hour! That download page has some strange coding. My downloaded file was named: redirect.php\?file\=cdimages%2Fkubuntu%2Fmaverick%2Fkubuntu-10.10-trinity-desktop-i386.iso (work needs to be done on the official pages - I think) Thanks Julius (results further down the page) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Glen Cunningham A g'day back to you! Thanks for your help, will try out the live CD first. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Calvin > I strongly suggest Slavek's packages. I have deployed them on all of > my systems with great success. Thanks (see reference to Slavek below) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Timothy Pearson wrote: > I am sorry that you are experiencing these problems. Please keep in mind > that we do not have the resources of other larger projects, which slows > development somewhat. This isn't about development but rather keeping things already released tidy before going forward ie not having a link to a version which doesn't work - that kind of thing! 8^) > Have you installed Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages? We are fully aware of the > problems with 3.5.13, including the one you describe (which is > incidentally a problem with the base system, not TDE itself), and are > planning to release a Stable Release Update as soon as possible. Thanks (see reference to Slavek below) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ref Slavek for someone to mention "Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages" is equivalent - AND AS HELPFUL - to me as saying There is a man in China who has the answer. He lives on a road with a tree on the corner and his house has a green door. NOT very helpful - IMHO. That answer may as well have been written in Serbo-Croatian-Outer-Mongolian-Yak-Script (I hope that is a part of the language package in trinity !!) AND I think this is the core of the problem. I think a wiki is required because developers will always have a non-'thick-user' frame of mind, which is very natural, and this nearly always creates a situation where the terse explanation "Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages" seems so obvious to the developer while remaining totally baffling to the user. Who is Slavek? How do I get in touch with him/her/it? Where does "Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages" live? Does this mean compiling? Patching? The problem is that you KNOW these answers and don't realise that WE - these demanding annoying users - are not in that same developer bubble as you. Instructions for the users should be written by the users - NOT by the developers. The phrase "Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages" means absoutely NOTHING to ME. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Dan Youngquist >Part of his point was that the installation instructions on the website do >not result in a working system. This is something we talked about here >several months ago, and nothing has been done about it. > How hard would it really be to fix the website? We think as one. Are we twins? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @LeeE > Referring people to a wiki for installation instructions sounds like a good > idea and would reduce any maintenance overhead for the web site. You'll go far! Another twin? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Lisi The reason why I used the term 'the WOW factor' was to draw attention to this totally destructive attitude of - this one doesn't work right, but wait till you see the next one - it'll be great!!!! Call me old-fashioned, if you will, but I think an official page linking to an official release which doesn't work somehow doesn't make much sense, but then again - I am not an expert! :=} > But this is Open Source. You are at liberty to rewrite bits that you don't > like, as indeed am I. So I lean on people, but do not feel justified in > criticising the things they do. I wasn't talking about bits I didn't like, but merely the fact it didn't work at all. IF the page had said - "this does not work - go write your own!", then I would have nothing to complain about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @Tim > I did not originally intend R14 to take so long to make it to release. In > fact I was not even planning for a 3.5.13 SRU, but enough bugs were > discovered over time (some original KDE bugs as well) to significantly > delay the next release. This is obviously suboptimal and it looks like > some things will need to be partially fixed in the interim. From what I've seen and read, this 'rush' for the next release is detrimental to the steady and longterm success of any DE 'version'. Too much 'pressure' can lead to developers dropping out because instead of being a pleasure and an interest it just turns into a grinding chore. Developers should develop, with some feedback from users, and users should have a group to organise instructions for new users - those who know about the using the DE to help those who don't. I would dearly love trinity to not only work but to gain a firm foothold in the DE landscape. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RESULTS OF DOWNLOADING THE LIVE CD (for those of a nervous disposition, please turn away now!) As Julius mentioned the live CD I downloaded it and tried it out. I ended up with a cli screen ubuntu@ubuntu: I thought that it might be my computer causing problems (my hard drive is beginning to whine as if about to kick the bucket!). Luckily I have a second computer so I tried the live CD on that and ended up with the same cli. Even though I've never used it in the past I decided to try the command startx just to see if that would work...and it did. (NOTE: a total newbie would not know that command). I then tried it again on my work-horse computer and it happened to automatically start the gui mode after a few seconds delay in the cli mode, so I installed it on a spare partition. Naturally enough I immediately decided to customise some of the design ie panel, clock, menu etc. to see how it 'worked' but half way through the clock customising, the colour chooser crashed, but I was able to continue and closed the clock dialogue box. Then I noticed that there was still a button of the clock dialogue box in the taskbar and I wasn't able to switch desktops. I decided to open a konsole and see if I could kill the clock dialogue box. The konsole opened but without a titlebar and it didn't accept any input. The system hadn't totally crashed - the menu worked but at that stage I decided to end that session and presume that this version wasn't going to be right no matter what. So, this long saga brings my experience with trinity up to date. I still want to have a kde3.5.xx/trinity type desktop and I wouldn't mind testing out the R14 when it comes out but for me I need a DE that helps me to get real work done - not a DE that I have to work on just trying to get it to work (if you get what I mean!). Someone mentioned Debian so I might check that out (I have only ever used kubuntu) but I don't want to spend hours and hours just trying to see if trinity works. AND the point is that even if I download and install Debian wheeze, sqeeze, breeze or sneeze than I still have the dilemma of should I download 3.5.13 or "Slavek's 3.5.13.1 packages" wherever that is? Will I have to compile it? Patch it? From my point of view, the whole thing is just a crazy unmitaged disaster zone. As far as I can see, in a way it's a case of the developers deciding: Is trinity to be a DE only for geeks or is it to be organised and 'packaged' for 'normal' linux users. PS From what I've read on this list it seems as if trinity does NOT work with any ubuntu releases. May I make a suggestion - PLEASE TAKE ALL REFERENCE TO UBUNTU OFF THE INSTALLATION PAGE. PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE. Just doing that would be such a positive move forward for trinity AND it would not waste the time of, and create the frustration and annoyance for, stupid innocent users like me!! Nevertheless - I will continue to live in hope that someday I will be installing a working trinity DE! (I'll have to read up about Debian) 8=) Sorry for the long email. I have to go to bed now to rest my weary head! ;@) Cheers to all. Lou Gogan Saula, Achill, Co Mayo, Ireland ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Where the sun shines from morning till night.......above the rain clouds. www.lougogan.com www.irishcitizen.ie