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Month: October 2015

Re: [trinity-users] Repositories for TDE was Re: [trinity-users] Slávek's repository

From: Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 01:35:31 +0100
On Monday 05 October 2015 23:20:08 Timothy Pearson wrote:
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> > On Monday 05 October 2015 22:28:58 Mike Bird wrote:
> >> I've spent half of my life in the UK and half in the US.  
> >
> > I don't see the relevance of that.  DSL isn't very old, so it makes a
> > difference which half and how old you are.  You may have no experience at
> > all
> > of DSL in the UK.  Besides, DSL is totally irrelevant.
> >
> >> I seriously
> >> doubt that US DSL connections are significantly less reliable than UK
> >> DSL connections.  Generally more expensive, but not much difference in
> >> reliability.
> >
> > I answered that, then deleted it because I realised that it is completely
> > irrelevant.
> >
> > If you think in terms of DSL in this context, then you have encapsulated
> > the
> > problem, and no wonder there are problems.  It is the 21st Century now,
> > not
> > the 20th.  Is Tim on DSL?  How on earth does he manage a modern server
> > farm
> > on DSL????  With difficulty would seem to be the answer.  DSL is slow and
> > unreliable.  We have the answer.
> >
> > Lisi
>
> Actually, no, you only think you have the answer.  DSL is outdated as you
> say, and there is no way I would be stupid enough to try to run a server
> farm like this on a DSL line. 

Tim -

I'm sorry that my disagreement with Mike has impinged on you.  It had not 
occurred to me that you might be using DSL.  It was Mike who said it, and I 
didn't really believe him.  See the question marks?

I am going to put in here at the beginning what I have said at the end:
I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim.  I think that what you are doing 
is wonderful.  But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.  

> In fact this location has always been 
> served with a "business class" line from a large provider, it's just that
> they decided to focus on residential service at the expense of business
> customers (probably due to people like you that seem to want everything
> centralised in one spot under the control of a handful of companies, with
> the resultant highly asymmetric access patterns)

No, I don't, that is unfair and untrue.  I have always gone out of my way to 
patronise small start-up companies and avoid the big boys.  I do all I can to 
stop other people using the big boys.  We have a law here against 
monopolies - one of the advantages of the  "liberalism" so hated by many in 
the US.  If I like everything centralised in one spot, why on earth do I use 
TDE??  

My ISP, Zen, was tiny when I joined it.  I'm not going to desert it for 
growing - though I shall desert it if it starts to behave like a "big-boy".  
There was a very small, very good local ISP that I was recommending to 
clients, but it has been taken over by someone bigger and less local, so I 
don't know where it is going and am not currently recommending it to anyone.

> .  They have basically 
> told us "sorry, there's nothing we can do for you, and by the way we have
> a monopoly on service in your area.  Would you like to buy fiber for only
> $20,000 USD / month?", so the only option left is a move.

Yes, you are really up against it.   I would hate to be in your shoes.
>
> Also, please remember that TDE is a donated service run by volunteers. 

Yes, I know.  I keep saying how grateful I am.  But that doesn't mean that I 
think that it is perfect.

> I 
> make no money off of this project, and the only reason I still keep it
> alive is because I use the software internally for business purposes and
> already invested the time and effort in building the public
> infrastructure.  I will not be investing that amount of time and effort
> again, so unless you find someone else willing to do it all, for free, to
> your specifications you will just have to live with the free services the
> way that they are, until such time as I am able to move them.

Again, I know.  I thought that I was trying to suggest trying to help do 
something about it.  Part of the problem is that any project which relies 
totally on one person is inevitably in a precarious position.
>
> Yes, I want TDE to be a worldwide project.  As Slavek mentioned we have a
> VPS available overseas and are moving some of the affected services to
> that machine.  

That sounds terrific and was just what I was saying would be good.  But can it 
not be all the public-facing services?

> Can we move core services like the build farm there? 
> Absolutely not!  

When have I ever suggested it?  I have only ever referred to the public-facing 
bits.

> If you were paying attention to the data transfer amounts 
> and disk space requirements that were previously sent to this list -- just
> for a mirror of the builds generated on my systems _at my expense_ -- you
> would begin to understand the reason for the "slow" "unreliable" master
> server access. 

Which is why we shouldn't be trying to access the master server.  I try to do 
so as little as possible, partly for that reason.  But Mike told me to do so, 
(advice he has repeated during the course of this "discussion") and the 
website says to use it.  It shouldn't.  

> It would cost a lot of money, on a monthly basis, just to 
> keep those services running elsewhere, and the donations coming in to the
> project are so pitiful (with one or two exceptions from generous
> individuals) that it would be cheaper for me just to yank all public
> access to all TDE services and develop it internally only.

There are sites that host projects like this pro bono, certainly the web-sites 
and repos etc. and public facing bits. I am willing to try to find one, but 
that seems to be a very unpopular suggestion.  But anyway, I thought you said 
that you had now got a VPS available, and were transferring some, hopefully 
all, of the public facing services.
>
> That last sentence brings me to my final point.  We have reached the point
> where we need more developers or more contributing users, not just people
> that are downloading and using the software.  While the latter are nice
> they do not help to drive the project forward or to even keep it on the
> Internet -- in fact, they hinder the latter goal.

Yes, I know.  But to get more developers you need more users.  And to get more 
users you need to be more accessible.  And my suggestion that I will help try 
to achieve that has met with a lot of hostility (not until now from you, I 
must add).  You cannot simultaneously change and stay the same.  You can stay 
small, cash strapped, threatened, or you can grow - and embrace any necessary 
changes.

> I'm not going to continue this conversation further.  From what you are
> saying you are going to stop promoting TDE, and that's your decision,

How can I go on promoting it, when it is then inaccessible?  However 
understandable it may be that it is inaccessible.  I have been promoting it 
hard and getting somewhere, but no-one goes on using it because it is just 
too much trouble.  But from what you say, extra people are just a nuisance 
anyway - something I have often wondered about.

> however I really want you to understand that actions have consequences.
> Just like the actions of thousands of people clamoring for better cloud
> services, Netflix/Amazon/etc. movie streaming, etc. 

I don't think they are.  It is Amazon Prime, Netfilx etc. that are clamouring 
for users.  And it is the providers who find providing DVDs by post more 
trouble than persuading people to stream.

> have damaged the 
> availability of symmetric Internet connections, if people stop supporting
> TDE or even promoting it then it will die and disappear. 

I know.  Which is why I have been promoting it.  But it will also die and 
disappear if you personally get fed up; or if it doesn't become accessible.  

I understand your problems.  But try to understand travelling for an hour or 
more to install or update TDE and having to go away again because it isn't 
accessible.  Or running a class, and the pupils being unable to install after 
all because it is unavailable.  That is what happens if people do as 
instructed on the website.  It shouldn't take inside knowledge to be able to 
use TDE, if it is to grow.  Reading the website should be enough.  So the 
recommended repo or redirector needs to be up reliably.  As, of course, does 
teh website.  Which seems to mean that it needs to be hosted somewhere 
outside the USA.  This Czeck one sounds marvellous.  And possibly/probably 
the answer to what I am saying.

I have solved it for myself for some years now by always using a mirror, which 
also keeps the load off the centre.  But not all the mirrors are reliable.  I 
asked for advice on which mirror people found reliable, Mike told me to use 
the redirector and that is where we came in...  I am now safely back on a 
mirror, though now I have chosen one, Mike tells me that I have chosen the 
wrong one.  I did ask for advice.

Apropos of which, if it is your recommended list, copernicus still seems to be 
unavailable.  kuiper is fine still.  Perhaps Kent decided that one was 
enough?  Anyhow, perhaps copernicus shouldn't be recommended.

> Better warm up 
> those KDE SC 5 or Unity configurations, because that's all we'll have
> left...

Yes, I know.  That is why I get so frustrated.  Unless we can find a way to 
keep TDE running it will die.  It needs users to generate money and 
developers, or it will be a small niche product and die. 

Most people go with the flow.  Most people use whatever the big boys shove 
out.  Only we rebels and social oddballs (and we must be if we don't use 
Ubuntu Unity - or even Windows - and bow and say thank you) will use TDE at 
any price.  I can't wean people off Unity onto something that is problematic.  
They just go back to Unity.  Or Windows.  

I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim.  I think that what you are doing 
is wonderful.  But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.  

Mike is to some extent attacking me, I am obviously annoying him, and you are 
getting caught in the crossfire.  That DSL business was obvious nonsense, and 
anyway it is completely irrelevant what provision is like here; or where Mike 
has lived.

I repeat:
I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim.  I think that what you are doing 
is wonderful.  But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.  

Lisi



> Tim
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