Larry Stotler wrote:

>> I am amazed in what is going on with KDE, X and many other projects,
>> where people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out
>> their view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did
>> this like about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the
>> lightest and easiest environments.
> 
> You are kidding, right? �What about the whole Gnome 3 mess with the
> Mate & Cinnamon forks(like TDE)? �Granted, it wasn't as messy as KDE4,
> but they still decided to do something similar.
> 

Yes, but it worked from the start compared to KDE4 (or at least it became
usable/mature much faster), so that ubuntu adopted it as default DE. And
last but not least, if you want to code an UI fast (and dirty), you can do
it easier in GTK. Qt5 is definitely a competitor and I see future for
Wayland and Qt5 especially on mobile devices. 

>> I am sure some of those people and projects will fail and some of them
>> will bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go.
>> I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something
>> ugly and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice
>> is to have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less.
>> When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the
>> people who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a
>> matter of time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff.
>> In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date
> 
> The biggest problems are:
> 
> 1. �Using an update/new version to force new & unwanted
> features.(Android and iOS are famous for this)
> 2. �Programmers preferring to code new stuff over fixing problems.
> 3. �Programmers that don't use what they code for real production work.
> 

I completely agree here, and this is why I spent time using and improving
TDE.

> I used KDE3 on openSUSE untill TDE become a better alternative.
> Unfortunately, most people aren't very tech-savy and just get over it
> and use it. �Windows 10 is a prime example. �Force people to "upgrade"
> by making it difficult to not do it. �I remember one of the arguments
> on the openSUSE lists about the KDE4 instabilities was that you needed
> to use the update repo over the standard to get the newer fixes. �When
> I pointed out that a lot of people probably didn't have a clue how to
> do that, it was met with disbelief.
> 
> That and when KDE4 was being pushed out I was told repeatedly to get
> with the future and get over it. �Just like being told I need to
> upgrade my computer to meet what they feel I should use. �My main
> laptop is a circa 2006 thinkpad, and before this I used a P3 Thinkpad
> T30p till 2011.
> 

Yes, I had same experience back then until I understood, that with the
philosophy they follow, they will never get a really stable environment.
Somehow recently it became usable in broader meaning - 6y later!

> So much is being pushed on users because it's the "future" like
> systemd, the "semantic desktop"(WTF is that and WHY DO I NEED IT???? -
> still don't get it), beagle(which is dead), avahi(utterly useless),
> etc, etc.
> 

Exactly my problem as well. I feel being forced to be beta tester of
someones prove of concept.

> There's a lot of things that can be fixed in the Linux
> ecosystem(removing dependencies or just including them in the
> program), duplication of work(each distro customizes firefox and
> supports multiple versions).....I could go on. �But what happens is
> someone wants to replace something that works and expects everyone to
> jump on the bus and use it regardless of whether it A. works, and B.
> offers something useful to the user not just the programmer.

Exactly my problem as well. In case of Wayland - again - I see future in
mobile world, where things are developing at the moment and it is really a
meaningful replacement of X there. As for TDE I am not quite sure that A.
it is doable and B. it would make sense/rectify the time invested. 

TDE developers, as you mentioned above, are focused on maintaining the
working code. New things get developed only in case it is really needed.
When I look at the bug list ... it is more than enough.

regards