On Monday 24 January 2011 23:50:22 David C. Rankin wrote: > On 01/23/2011 07:05 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote: > > On 1/22/11, Robert Xu <robxu9@...> wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III > > <snip> > > >>> I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options > >>> available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more > >>> cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a > >>> reasonable balance - John > > Exactly, the key is balance. I understand that people have personal > preference for "more or less" or "standard menu verses kickoff", but there > is no replacement for a clean default menu. When a menu expands to 2 > columns, my eyes glaze over hunting for the app I want hoping like heck > that it is "Named" correctly. Desktops get completely unusable very quickly > when know applications get hidden under some ridiculous "Description - > Name" layout in whatever menu you use. For example, in July, my apps > disappeared and this was what greeted me in lost+found: > > [131k] > http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/arch/bugs/kde3-lost+found-menu.jpg > > One thing that absolutely drove me crazy with the kickoff style menu was > everything was hidden from view and it was (and still is unnavigable). Even > with icon size reduced to 22-28, you click on System and only see the first > 8 or so submenus or entries and then you have to 'scroll' hoping what you > want is somewhere further down in the list and then repeat the process > until you find the right menu or submenu. Horribly inefficient. The > 'search' feature fails in this regard because if you use it, it doesn't > tell you where the app you found lives. That's one of the reasons I have > always preferred the traditional kmenu over kickoff -- it was much more > visual. > > Another issue with kickoff is the 'Favorite' view. If what you want is > already in your favorites, then your fine, but it not, then it is back to > the game of hide-and-seek. The default kickoff is basically empty. So for > the new user, you are forced to go 'build a menu' before it becomes usable. > Then the limitations of the kickoff become apparent. If you use no more > than 10 apps, you will probably be OK after you add everything to the > favorites. If you use more, then it is back to hunting for apps or > scrolling through a list that extends out of site defeating the 'fly-out' > auto opening of subs for access. > > >> The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad > >> meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps. > >> For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other > >> such applications such as to-do lists > >> And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation > >> Processors... > >> > >> I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu. > > I respect Robert's input here. (I assume Robert means a maxdepth of 2 > (toplevel + 1-sublevel) when speaking of 'no more than one submenu') When I > click on a menu or submenu, I only want to see a dozen or so entries. At > most -- a single column on a 900 px height display. If the menu entries are > logical and descriptive, I don't think a maxdepth of 3 is necessary, even > considering the number of utilities and apps that need a home in the menu. > I think it can all be done with: > > Development > ------------ > quick list of 3-5 most used apps > ------------ > Submenu1 > Submenu2 > Submenu3 > ... > Education > ------------ > quick list of 3-5 most used apps > ------------ > Submenu1 > Submenu2 > Submenu3 > ... > Games > ------------ > quick list of 3-5 most used apps > ------------ > Submenu1 > Submenu2 > Submenu3 > .. > etc... > > The key here is toplevel design. When you click on kmenu > > > With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me > > people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered > > and well labeled. > > +1 > > What does put them off, is being bombarded by > > > dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two submenus (choice, both > > the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled, > > submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression, > > informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been > > dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful > > for this opportunity. > > Well put. > > <snip> > > > FOSS is said to be about freedom of > > knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being > > dumbed down. > > dumbed down = frustratingly useless > > No one expects to go into any desktop and not expect some type of learning > curve. Logic and clarity minimizes the frustration and allows the > reasonable user to find the app or information they need with the minimum > of learning. You can 'focus group' what the 'average joe' thinks is the > correct name for a menu or application should be to the point of absurdity > and then end up with menu entries like "My Computer" that pop up more > windows and tabs and buttons that eventually show you a MAC address (or > whatever). > > The point being, providing a logical working menu that correctly identifies > and categorizes applications and information is far easier to learn than > some esoteric set of 'cute' names that eventually lead somewhere. (you can > memorize the telephone book with enough effort, but once you have > succeeded, you have actually learned nothing except how to memorize) > > That is why I applaud this effort and think the result will, while keeping > Robert's caution about "how Fedora butcher's theirs" in mind, be one of the > best standardizations that Trinity can do. > > <snip> > > > There is a difference between making something accessible and useless. > > I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in > > action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better. > > > > /action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit. > > I think you are doing a fantastic job and taking the right approach -- > soapbox and all. I can't wait to see what results. > > (Now back to figuring out how to build trinity on Arch so I can dump the > old version of KDEmod3 for good :-) Dare I say it... I like the menu in KDE 3.5.10. I don't think it is perfect, I don't think that it cannot be improved, but by and large I can find things. My one gripe about it is that on the rare occasions that I reinstall, I have to search all over again for the right action to get rid of those pesky favourites. <ducks and dons flame-proof suit> I work from the keyboard, and there is a limit to the number of keystrokes I want to have to use to shutdown. But I don't forget that Kate is actually *doing* something, not just sitting on the sidelines. She therefore has the casting vote as far as I am concerned! Lisi
